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	<title>Comments on: It&#8217;s OK to use URIs with Fragments in RDF</title>
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	<link>http://blog.iandavis.com/2007/11/its-ok-to-use-uris-with-fragments-in-rdf</link>
	<description>blog.iandavis.com</description>
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		<title>By: iand</title>
		<link>http://blog.iandavis.com/2007/11/its-ok-to-use-uris-with-fragments-in-rdf/comment-page-1#comment-564</link>
		<dc:creator>iand</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Dec 2007 11:52:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://iandavis.com/blog/2007/11/its-ok-to-use-uris-with-fragments-in-rdf#comment-564</guid>
		<description>Thanks Ed, I think &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.25hoursaday.com/weblog/CommentView.aspx?guid=1cb711b6-18c2-42fa-8221-14f1c257482c&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Dare&lt;/a&gt; summarises some of the viewpoints on conneg quite nicely.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Ed, I think <a href="http://www.25hoursaday.com/weblog/CommentView.aspx?guid=1cb711b6-18c2-42fa-8221-14f1c257482c" rel="nofollow">Dare</a> summarises some of the viewpoints on conneg quite nicely.</p>
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		<title>By: Danny</title>
		<link>http://blog.iandavis.com/2007/11/its-ok-to-use-uris-with-fragments-in-rdf/comment-page-1#comment-563</link>
		<dc:creator>Danny</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Dec 2007 18:33:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://iandavis.com/blog/2007/11/its-ok-to-use-uris-with-fragments-in-rdf#comment-563</guid>
		<description>&quot;Because of this people say you need to deprecate things like content negotation, effectively separating RDF off into its own little closed network. Iâ€™d prefer not to do that.&quot; - me neither.

&quot;If we avoid using fragment identifiers to identify abstract concepts then the issue goes away.&quot; - hmm, I guess so, though it does seem a sledgehammer, especially given the number of #terms already in use. I can easily picture httpRange-14 as a necessary evil (hassle), though on all these points I don&#039;t have any better answers :-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Because of this people say you need to deprecate things like content negotation, effectively separating RDF off into its own little closed network. Iâ€™d prefer not to do that.&#8221; &#8211; me neither.</p>
<p>&#8220;If we avoid using fragment identifiers to identify abstract concepts then the issue goes away.&#8221; &#8211; hmm, I guess so, though it does seem a sledgehammer, especially given the number of #terms already in use. I can easily picture httpRange-14 as a necessary evil (hassle), though on all these points I don&#8217;t have any better answers :-)</p>
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		<title>By: Ed Summers</title>
		<link>http://blog.iandavis.com/2007/11/its-ok-to-use-uris-with-fragments-in-rdf/comment-page-1#comment-562</link>
		<dc:creator>Ed Summers</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Dec 2007 15:30:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://iandavis.com/blog/2007/11/its-ok-to-use-uris-with-fragments-in-rdf#comment-562</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the really engaging series of posts Ian. I&#039;m curious though, who wants to deprecate conneg?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the really engaging series of posts Ian. I&#8217;m curious though, who wants to deprecate conneg?</p>
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		<title>By: iand</title>
		<link>http://blog.iandavis.com/2007/11/its-ok-to-use-uris-with-fragments-in-rdf/comment-page-1#comment-551</link>
		<dc:creator>iand</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Nov 2007 11:04:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://iandavis.com/blog/2007/11/its-ok-to-use-uris-with-fragments-in-rdf#comment-551</guid>
		<description>Danny, once again you get to the core of my argument. Yes, fragments are interpreted differently according to the representation. But RDF assumes that they have a fixed meaning. So you can reason about them all you like but it could all fall apart when you take a look at what a URI actually denotes and find you get a different answer depending on how you look.

Because of this people say you need to deprecate things like content negotation, effectively separating RDF off into its own little closed network. I&#039;d prefer not to do that. If we avoid using fragment identifiers to identify abstract concepts then the issue goes away. httpRange-14 does fix this but because it adds an additional request into the loop (i.e. the 303 redirect) a lot of people try to avoid it by using fragments.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Danny, once again you get to the core of my argument. Yes, fragments are interpreted differently according to the representation. But RDF assumes that they have a fixed meaning. So you can reason about them all you like but it could all fall apart when you take a look at what a URI actually denotes and find you get a different answer depending on how you look.</p>
<p>Because of this people say you need to deprecate things like content negotation, effectively separating RDF off into its own little closed network. I&#8217;d prefer not to do that. If we avoid using fragment identifiers to identify abstract concepts then the issue goes away. httpRange-14 does fix this but because it adds an additional request into the loop (i.e. the 303 redirect) a lot of people try to avoid it by using fragments.</p>
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		<title>By: Danny</title>
		<link>http://blog.iandavis.com/2007/11/its-ok-to-use-uris-with-fragments-in-rdf/comment-page-1#comment-550</link>
		<dc:creator>Danny</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Nov 2007 10:54:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://iandavis.com/blog/2007/11/its-ok-to-use-uris-with-fragments-in-rdf#comment-550</guid>
		<description>True, it could get incredibly awkward, trying to reconcile fragids in apple, orange and kumquat flavours. But this is assuming you really want to use the same fragids across all the representations. It&#039;s the publisher that makes the decisions on what constitutes a representation of a given resource in a given media type, I don&#039;t see anything that compels the publisher to provide the exact same information in each representation. 

(Unless perhaps InformationResource is interpreted that way - but your arguments on those are quite compelling, the notion does seem increasingly rubbish each time I look...).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>True, it could get incredibly awkward, trying to reconcile fragids in apple, orange and kumquat flavours. But this is assuming you really want to use the same fragids across all the representations. It&#8217;s the publisher that makes the decisions on what constitutes a representation of a given resource in a given media type, I don&#8217;t see anything that compels the publisher to provide the exact same information in each representation. </p>
<p>(Unless perhaps InformationResource is interpreted that way &#8211; but your arguments on those are quite compelling, the notion does seem increasingly rubbish each time I look&#8230;).</p>
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		<title>By: iand</title>
		<link>http://blog.iandavis.com/2007/11/its-ok-to-use-uris-with-fragments-in-rdf/comment-page-1#comment-549</link>
		<dc:creator>iand</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Nov 2007 10:39:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://iandavis.com/blog/2007/11/its-ok-to-use-uris-with-fragments-in-rdf#comment-549</guid>
		<description>Danny, what if we wanted to serve a PDF version of AWWW there too? Then we&#039;d have to align additionally with the semantics defined by &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc3778.txt&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;RFC 3778&lt;/a&gt;:

&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;The handling of fragment identifiers [6] is currently defined in Adobe Technical Note 5428 [7]. This section summarizes that material.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;A fragment identifier consists of one or more PDF-open parameters in a single URL, separated by the ampersand (&amp;) or pound (#) character. Each parameter implies an action to be performed and the value to be used for that action. Actions are processed and executed from left to right as they appear in the character string that makes up the fragment identifier.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;The PDF-open parameters allow the specification of a particular page or named destination to open. Named destinations are similar to the &quot;anchors&quot; used in HTML or the IDs used in XML. Once the target is specified, the view of the page in which it occurs can be specified, either by specifying the position of a viewing rectangle and its scale or size coordinates or by specifying a view relative to the viewing window in which the chosen page is to be presented.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Danny, what if we wanted to serve a PDF version of AWWW there too? Then we&#8217;d have to align additionally with the semantics defined by <a href="http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc3778.txt" rel="nofollow">RFC 3778</a>:</p>
<blockquote><p>The handling of fragment identifiers [6] is currently defined in Adobe Technical Note 5428 [7]. This section summarizes that material.</p>
<p>A fragment identifier consists of one or more PDF-open parameters in a single URL, separated by the ampersand (&#038;) or pound (#) character. Each parameter implies an action to be performed and the value to be used for that action. Actions are processed and executed from left to right as they appear in the character string that makes up the fragment identifier.</p>
<p>The PDF-open parameters allow the specification of a particular page or named destination to open. Named destinations are similar to the &#8220;anchors&#8221; used in HTML or the IDs used in XML. Once the target is specified, the view of the page in which it occurs can be specified, either by specifying the position of a viewing rectangle and its scale or size coordinates or by specifying a view relative to the viewing window in which the chosen page is to be presented.</p>
</blockquote>
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		<title>By: Danny</title>
		<link>http://blog.iandavis.com/2007/11/its-ok-to-use-uris-with-fragments-in-rdf/comment-page-1#comment-548</link>
		<dc:creator>Danny</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Nov 2007 10:35:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://iandavis.com/blog/2007/11/its-ok-to-use-uris-with-fragments-in-rdf#comment-548</guid>
		<description>Ian, that&#039;s what I was trying to (approximately) express in the RDF snippet, to cover &quot;both representations use #frag to mean the same thing&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ian, that&#8217;s what I was trying to (approximately) express in the RDF snippet, to cover &#8220;both representations use #frag to mean the same thing&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: iand</title>
		<link>http://blog.iandavis.com/2007/11/its-ok-to-use-uris-with-fragments-in-rdf/comment-page-1#comment-547</link>
		<dc:creator>iand</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Nov 2007 09:21:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://iandavis.com/blog/2007/11/its-ok-to-use-uris-with-fragments-in-rdf#comment-547</guid>
		<description>Danny, the relevant section is in &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2854.txt&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;RFC 2854&lt;/a&gt;:

&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;For documents labeled as text/html, the fragment identifier designates the correspondingly named element; any element may be named with the &quot;id&quot; attribute, and A, APPLET, FRAME, IFRAME, IMG and MAP elements may be named with a &quot;name&quot; attribute.  This is described in detail in [HTML40] section 12.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Danny, the relevant section is in <a href="http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2854.txt" rel="nofollow">RFC 2854</a>:</p>
<blockquote><p>For documents labeled as text/html, the fragment identifier designates the correspondingly named element; any element may be named with the &#8220;id&#8221; attribute, and A, APPLET, FRAME, IFRAME, IMG and MAP elements may be named with a &#8220;name&#8221; attribute.  This is described in detail in [HTML40] section 12.</p>
</blockquote>
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		<title>By: iand</title>
		<link>http://blog.iandavis.com/2007/11/its-ok-to-use-uris-with-fragments-in-rdf/comment-page-1#comment-546</link>
		<dc:creator>iand</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Nov 2007 09:20:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://iandavis.com/blog/2007/11/its-ok-to-use-uris-with-fragments-in-rdf#comment-546</guid>
		<description>Dan, quite possibly. That&#039;s certainly been my thinking in the design of embedded RDF where the id attribute is used to denote a new arbitrary resource. 

But Tim&#039;s &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.w3.org/mid/5D85BD4B-C366-400C-B095-B13352D73F43@w3.org&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;recent message&lt;/a&gt;  made me look closer at this stuff again. HTML is quite clear on the meaning of the fragment, i.e. as a document section. If my RDF says the same then there&#039;s clearly no issue, but if I want #me to represent me in RDF and also to be an anchor in HTML containing a prose description of me then that&#039;s not strictly correct.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dan, quite possibly. That&#8217;s certainly been my thinking in the design of embedded RDF where the id attribute is used to denote a new arbitrary resource. </p>
<p>But Tim&#8217;s <a href="http://www.w3.org/mid/5D85BD4B-C366-400C-B095-B13352D73F43@w3.org" rel="nofollow">recent message</a>  made me look closer at this stuff again. HTML is quite clear on the meaning of the fragment, i.e. as a document section. If my RDF says the same then there&#8217;s clearly no issue, but if I want #me to represent me in RDF and also to be an anchor in HTML containing a prose description of me then that&#8217;s not strictly correct.</p>
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		<title>By: Dan Connolly</title>
		<link>http://blog.iandavis.com/2007/11/its-ok-to-use-uris-with-fragments-in-rdf/comment-page-1#comment-542</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan Connolly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Nov 2007 02:47:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://iandavis.com/blog/2007/11/its-ok-to-use-uris-with-fragments-in-rdf#comment-542</guid>
		<description>Have you considered the possibility that HTML and RDF *do* have consistent fragment identifier semantics? i.e. webarch doesn&#039;t forbid you to use doc#frag with both HTML and RDF; webarch just says that if you do so, you&#039;re claiming that both representations use #frag to mean the same thing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Have you considered the possibility that HTML and RDF *do* have consistent fragment identifier semantics? i.e. webarch doesn&#8217;t forbid you to use doc#frag with both HTML and RDF; webarch just says that if you do so, you&#8217;re claiming that both representations use #frag to mean the same thing.</p>
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